Wednesday, September 10, 2008

Is the Art World Growing Up Again?

"A touch of gray suits you," my mother told me the last time I was home. I know, I know, mothers have to say reassuring things like that...that's their job, but it wasn't her kindness that surprised me (she's like that), and it wasn't exactly news that I have a touch of gray (I also have a mirror), rather it was the fact that I didn't freak out or feel old before my time or think anything was wrong with maturing that made me pause a moment...and then smile.

I've been around long enough now to know that all scenes cycle through their youthquakes, important development years, rich maturities, and eventually fade to that out-of-touch stage that sparks another youthquake. Even in our earliest days in Williamsburg, though, I could never quite pull off "hip," so I'm very much enjoying what I'm seeing in the art world of late: what I would call a slowing down or more serious tone to things. That's not to imply that there's not still wonderful/important things to be found in hipper, youthquakier, faster-moving quarters of the art world, mind you, but from art consultants to collectors to other dealers I've talked with recently, everyone seems to be exhaling a huge sigh of relief that they can actually reflect a bit more these days. And isn't that the joy (if not the entire point) of art?

If the last decade or so was defined by frantically spanning the globe, I feel the next one will finally take full advantage of the luxury that technology affords us to perhaps travel less but still get as much accomplished. It's partly the economy (and in particular the dollar), I know, but nearly every gallery I talk with lately tells me they're scaling back on the number of art fairs they're going to do in the next year. Fewer overseas, fewer domestically. (Actually, I think this might be less attributable to dealers slowing down than the fact that collectors simply got exhausted from the "if this is Tuesday, this must be Brussels" pace of the year-round art fair season, but the effect is the same...)

And it's not just in the market we're seeing a more mature pace and decision-making take hold. In last week's post on forecasting the new fall season, I noted that I thought, like MoMA's choice of Ann Temkin for their new chief curator of painting and sculpture, the Met would find their new director from within, rather than try to grab headlines and attention with some international celebrity pick, they'd go for continuity and known quality. Well, they still got their headline, but...
Ending months of fervid speculation, the Metropolitan Museum of Art reached into its own ranks on Tuesday and chose Thomas P. Campbell, a 46-year-old English-born tapestries curator, to succeed Philippe de Montebello as director and chief executive.

The appointment, effective Jan. 1, was approved in a late-afternoon vote by the museum’s board of trustees after a suspenseful eight-month search that began when Mr. Montebello, 72, announced plans to retire after 31 years in the post.
Choosing a serious director (like, oh, say, choosing a serious vice presidential running mate) is part of the more focused, more tempered sensibility in the air these days. God knows we've had enough recklessness in our government of late, and while a bit of recklessness among artists (the visual arts version of the rock star) is always healthy and often necessary, the cultural custodians (museums, galleries, curators, collectors, writers, etc.) seem to have caught their reflection in the mirror and noticed that acting like they too were rock stars perhaps wasn't the most flattering look for them.

None of which will last for that long. Another youthquake is undoubtedly right around the corner. And while that is as it should be, I, for one, intend to savor the slower pace and the richer conversations I'm having with all the players these days, even the conversations about my younger, more rambunctious artists. It's amazing how much you can get done when you're not trying to keep up with the Jones-ters. It won't last, I know, but this current climate seems to suit me.

Labels: art world


Blogger Donna Dodson said...

Ed, nice post! This is a brilliant observation... 'the cultural custodians (museums, galleries, curators, collectors, writers, etc.) seem to have caught their reflection in the mirror and noticed that acting like they too were rock stars perhaps wasn't the most flattering look for them.' Thank you. -Donna

9/10/2008 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Glenn said...

A season of reflection is a very welcomed time in the art world and most certainly will change in the blink of an eye. Thanks Ed, for reminding us of the importance of being present.

9/10/2008 10:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

There was this artist at the last (the first) Quebec Triennal named David Ross who did these dark photographs of art galleries and institutions storage rooms. It's very different from Louise Lawler, as he photograhs them in their state of darkness over a very long period of time. The thing that stroke me about the work (and it was one of the intention of the artist) is how revealed that most art being done is lost to storage. Even when a collector buys art, they will put their favorite work of the day in their living room, and probably store all the rest.

In the meantime, the artworld always requires from artists to bring on something new. To bring some fresh objects for people to peruse for a couple months until their next show. It all disappears 2 years later as the focus is for a major part fixed on the new and the current.

I wish art would circulate more. I wish a "good show" in a New York gallery wouldn't last for a mere month, but could travel to other spaces, other cities. Even museum retrsopectives are disappointing these days because the curators are not able to bring on all the important pieces of an artist. Think Kapoor or Oliasson: small retros that were missing countless landmark works from these artists,
stuff that you only seen in magazines for the most part.

And how many Venice Biennial winner pieces I haven't seen because they travel very badly?

I think we need less of the new,
and more circulation of the art that receives praise.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/10/2008 11:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

I think that where the project of Ross stroke me more than Lawler's is how he photographs art in quasi-anonymous stacks, or within the confinements of the storage devices, whereas Lawler will show you precise recognizeable works and attempts to contruct narratives around their juxtapositions. By being dry and clinical, I thought Ross was exposing an artworld that is bored with itself.

Reflection times? Try a visit to your attic and open those locked chests!

How many works was Sonnabend hiding in her vaults again? Somthing like over 600?

Cedric Caspesyan

9/10/2008 12:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How does this climate bode for artists who happen to be young?

9/10/2008 12:35:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

I'd say that so long as they're working to gain attention for the quality of their art and not their relative inexperience that it bodes as well as any other climate.

9/10/2008 12:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Last thing we need is another overhyped art school group of ignorant brats. Art is all about marketing now, not arts true function in society(more on that later). It is about fighting for the small world of inbred artists and patrons, getting to the rich investors, speculators, trying to make a killing. Most of the old stuff is yesterdays excess, and was never worthy of showing as is. Keep it put away, and hopefuly when enough lose money on their gambles, as the economy tumbles after years of maxing out our internation credit cards, we will reexamine what art is.
For art is, and always has been, about defining who we are as a people, and god. About the eternal, about mans limitations and strivings. About producing works that reflect societies growth, not decadence, which has been the last forty years. Name me more than five artists who will mean a damn in more than 100 years. Thats about all I can think of, the rest will be the footnotes like Gerome and Meisonnier.
I do think we are going through a period of change, of the end of cheap generyg and commodities, The price will stabize below its last peak, but gradually rise as the economy eventually licks its wounds, self inflicted ones, and gets moving again in about two years. This is the greatest change in society since WWII, times when art truly grows and reevaluates who we are. This is when things get interesting, the last primarily in music, jazz, the Miles Davis, Monks, Coltranes of modern music, which jazz was. And some painters in a last burst of modernism. Then silence, and decadence for forty years. Society grew complacent, and with little change, except in the information age, which was badly used. Too much crap, and few bother to cut through the BS to reality. They rejoiced in mediocrity and the meida itself, and the wealth of this latest gilded age. Boring. Irrelevant. Done.
It will take a while to shake out, and the period of reassessment will NOT come from the academies, stiffling institutions of self absorbed and willfully ignorant self glorification.
Change will come from without, and by those who have actually lived and experienced life, not spoiled children who know nothing, and have been in sheltered playgrounds called art academies. There has been a change, and with it, of values. What will come remains to be seen, it is here, in the air, but the establishment will not see it, for art is the playground of the rich.

Art Academia Delenda Est.

Time to move on and truly grow up.

9/10/2008 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

Last thing we need is another overhyped art school group of ignorant brats. Art is all about marketing now

Fighting hyperbole with hyperbole, I see.

There are geniuses among us of all ages at the moment. Not everything is hype. Some will stand the test of time and reveal to future generations as much about us as any art of any time reveals to us about them now.

9/10/2008 03:19:00 PM  
Blogger Oly said...

Ed, remember always-- where was George Clooney before the gray hair, huh? FACTS OF LIFE.

Wear your hair with pride!



9/10/2008 03:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Obsolete said...

What I really like about your blog, is that it's so now. I feel like there's something in the air and you write about it.

9/10/2008 04:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually George Clooney had a bit of pre-gray success on ER.

9/10/2008 04:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

=====Name me more than five =====artists who will mean a damn ====in more than 100 years.

Art is not just about the ego of five persons whose names get widely recognized.

Or is it? Oh sorry, than I got it all wrong.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/10/2008 04:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Again, name me more than five artists that are worth a damn from the last forty years. I dont mean the generations from before them, but post Warhol. Not the Pollocks or de Koonings, or Diebenkorns or Tamayos. Contemporary art is all about self worship. It centerizes the subject, which is always the artiste and his or her, or its, feelings. Mostly anorexic princesses and metrosexuals boys these days, who have never experienced real life outside of school and art colonies of the spoiled and self absorbed.

Hockney grew up when he stopped his stupid stiff ilustrations of his gay life. When he started set designing he discovered Matisse, and his color grew richer, and shapes simplified. They came alive, though not real deep.
Anselm Kiefer is far more Modern than contemporary too, and dos what I state, defines his people, and searches for god. THAT is arts purpose. Not childish self expression, or therapy, or mental games. All disconnected from life.

There are a coupla more, but name those who have done a damn thing worth remembering. Who has built relationships that reflect life, that bring the work forward and whose life force can fill a room. Not the vacant sterilized fake industrial galleries of those who have never worked a day in their lives, and want to fantasize about being somebody, instead of actually participating in lifes work. In surviving, growing, thriving, producing works that advance mankind. Have kids, few artist can do that, they are children themselves. God help their offspring if they do, will have worse than hollywood brats. As they would never see what a man truly is.

Artists have a task to perform, as do athletes, businessmen, farmers, warriors, cooks. They have ignored it and wallowed in decadence. Justify yourself. Why should you sit on your asses while the rest of mankind works to feed our children, pay taxes which artists life off of through grants, which should all be cancelled. What a waste in a world of shortages and starvation.

Justify your lives, what do you create to benefit mankind? If nothing, then go get a job. Even if it is living off daddy, most of you are anyway. At least produce SOMETHING usefull.

Art collegeia delenda est.

9/10/2008 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

Donald, if you please:



9/10/2008 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

Well! There you go. Thank you!

9/10/2008 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Oly said...

Clooney had pretty salt-and-pepper by ER's launch.

It only went silver by the time of him doing the Batman film.

Working with Schwarzenegger will do that to you.

9/10/2008 04:52:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

BTW, I work to feed myself and my family, pay taxes, pay my own health insurance, and work to find ways that people can stay healthier for less, AND I make art. And I've never received a grant. I'm worth a damn! So are the artists whom I blog about! I recommend that you look around more earnestly for artists like us.

9/10/2008 04:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann said...

I like you Donald, Even if You Don't
want me to-I've always liked you.

9/10/2008 05:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

If it is a functional art, design, architecture, movie making, music, fine, that has purpose. Art with NO purpose beyond partying of spoiled brats has been in vogue for decades, not just the last ten years. It is just the height of folly, of our gilded age.

I am done raising my kids, adopted, coached, mentored, and worked in the print industry. Now after twleve years away, I see all I hated took over completely, especially in the art colleges, where FINE art is taught, not creative. Fine art is for the rich, catering to their desires. Creative arts are of the spirit, that focus us on lifes purpose and enrichen it. Applied arts are as above, and essential to our everyday needs.

What has ANYTHING of the last forty years been about, but selfishness. Where the individual is glorified, spewed out as uneducated brats from art academies which are truly money making businesses promoting mediocrity. No other field of man do kids comng out of college actually think they know something.

My oldest adopted son just gradauted from Annapolis, one of the top colleges in the world. But it is just a ticket into the game, at a higher level than other because he earned it, but truly knows little yet, just has some basic skills developed to do his job. And begin to truly learn. Art students know practically nothing of the world, No history, no science, no political knowledge, as I have read on this and many other naive art threads.

If you want to see how we got in this mess, as I am a history major who has lived a terribly interesting life, as the Chinese curse goes, read my article when you google me. Imperial Clothing. Things are now changing, thank god, its in the air, feel it., No, not Obama, another damn swirl like my son and countless others here in the LBC, home of Snoop Dogg and Sublime. He is better than McCain, barely, as neither will deal with our huge deficit and how the Chinese and others own us through bonds as we overspent during our drunken frat boy party of the last decade.

Art needs to look in the mirror, justify yourself every single day. What is your job? Are you fulfilling it? Are you benefiting mankind, or just avoiding work? We have a task to perform, just like others, to visualize the woven tapestry of life. We are but one thread, along with thousands of others in different jobs essential to mans growth, and finding our way in this world.

I havent seen it in decades. But this often comes about during times of extreme change, as with in the aftermath of WWII and the nuclear age we had to reexamine our ways, our believes, our purpose. Jazz was the essential force, part of the civil rights movement which did NOT come about in the 60s, that is just when white folks finally got it, and adapted, slightly. But the larger explosions of the golden age of the Hellenes, the Renaissance, the post impressionists as they came to terms with Darwin and Rutherford. The Moderns with Einstein, and the end of Europe in WWI

But creative, spiritual art has always existed, everywhere, and has always had the same purpose. Who are we? What are we to do? Where are we going? Gauguin painted it.It is about god, that which the liberlas are scared to confront, and the the right wingers distort.

Tear down the Bastilles of art, the academies, in our minds and souls if not materially, for they are corrupt. And serve the rich. And the children do not see, for they are bought and sold by them their market, their daddies.

Art collegia delenda est.

9/10/2008 05:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Who are you Ann? I dont try to be liked, I try to be honest. And work hard to learn, everyday. Life is out there, not inside. We are blank slates with certain temperaments and latent abilities at birth, we are the sum of the decisions we make that are offered to us as we grow. We are what we learn from what has come before, we must build upon it, or feel it collapse. The individual is nothing, humanity is everything. Our purpose, to enable our species to survive, and thrive. No one indivdual has all the answers, for there are only questions. Learn to ask good ones, and more will come. That is what makes life thriling, to grow.

Begin anew. Throw out all you have "learned" from the academies, whose sole purpose is to survive, and as in the creative arts it is true, those who can do, those who cant teach, why learn from hacks? Even if nice human beings, who cares? You job is to learn from the best, from the sum of human knowledge, and build upon it. Not those who truly dont get it. AS Cezanne said, teh Louvr is my teacher. Read what real artist have said, get taht feel of what moves humans, and try to create that in your own way, with what you know, what you understand. How you do it is irreleveant, it can be painting an apple, a nude, a mountain. A sculpture, a movie, a sound. Does it reflect life, is it layers with many relationships, for taht is life and how to create, the relationships for fomrs, colors line, textures. Just KNOW your motif, then go learn.

Imperial Clothing

Art Collegia Delenda Est.

9/10/2008 05:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Not so pretty lady who talks in the third person, Talk about vain dementia. You symbolize what is wrong, Its all about you. YOUR feelings, YOUR desires, YOUR thoughts, YOUR needs. Who cares? by the way, my beautiful wife is so much hotter than you its laughable, a gorgeous creative intelligent chocolate Tae Bo goddess. Maybe to skinny homely artists.....

9/10/2008 05:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann again said...

Donald, can you switch it up?
Some of the dialogue is really good and full of "HEARTY" conviction.
Dialogue: Seriously, what the fuck makes your story or appeal any different than any other sorry sucker? Like me?
"I like you," but in an age when every person is weaponized I'm afraid your approach is outdated. This "god" (needs to be defined) shifts from second to splitting seconds your not the same donald.

Art has always been a part of the "human" war game

9/10/2008 05:46:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

I will turn the moderation back on again, folks. Stop addressing the personalities here and address the point.

This is directed specifically at you Donald. One more comment directed at a person, rather than their comment, and you will be asked to leave.

There's plenty to discuss here other than personalities.

I don't have the patience for this I used to. This is the only warning, I'll issue...after this I'll just delete comments I don't feel respect this request. No explanations, no apologies.

Discuss the issues.

9/10/2008 05:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Fans of Ann said...

I Love you Donald, I've Always loved you.

9/10/2008 05:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

-----Contemporary art is all about ---self worship.

I am presuming that you hate the work of Joseph Beuys and wish to devalue any metaphysical or spiritual interpretation of his legacy.

I will also presume that you believe Anish Kapoor to produce nothing but big aesthetic baubles for art markets.

Or that all of Ann Hamilton's works are centered on her self-veneration.

And that Bill Viola's videos are the pornography of his ego.

Or that Robert Smithson after all only ever wanted to become really famous.

Where are you coming from, with all that castrative BS?

Claude os, aperi oculos ??!!

Cedric Caspesyan

(Do I not know science? Of course, not. I'm a strangelet that just occured from LHC. Pfff)

9/10/2008 05:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

I never was. What I say is meaningless unless useful. Words are just synbols, used to convey thoughts and feelings. If they work, they will live through actions taken by others and oneself. If they just sit there, they are useless. Words dont matter deeds do.

I dont care if anyone likes me or my words or not, but test them, and find if there is truth in them. If not, ignore me, plenty of of other blowhards out that as you say. The TV is swarming with self proclaimed experts. Test them, use science as your key. If they lead to more, BETTER questions, then they were good ones. If they lead to smaller and regressive questions they are not worth dwelling on.

If I speak truth it will come out. Is everything I write true, of course not, its all opinion. But the lack of background, and back bone, in art makes it easy pickens. Hard to be wrong in such a vacumm of knowledge and experience.

God is NOT to be defined, it is to be striven towards. Defining belittles the concept. what we define is our humanity, our purpose. Art is to discove this by exploratin adn experimenting, finding forms that trigger vas emotions, questioning, intensity of living. Not through games and tricks and lies adn partys. But through our accumalted knowledge, as a human, and part of humanity.

We do not define purpose ourselves, but uncover it for others to find. In their own way. but it must be built on what has come before, ignorance wil get you lies and distortions and death. Its not mystical, but of this earth. Purpose is everything. Art at this moment has none. Except self gratification.

9/10/2008 06:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Eddie, I only did it for the so called pretty girl she started it, adn deserves it. I am done. And go ahead, I got pleanty of other things to do if you wannabe like that.

Otherwise its been all non personal, if it hurts, then its because it is true, and not directed towards anyone in particular.

And Cedric(obviously not the Entertainer)
You got it!

9/10/2008 06:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

---And Cedric(obviously not the

I'm really just Cedric The Owl from King's Quest V alerting the king about a poisooonous snake.

Cerdric C

9/10/2008 06:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Yes, tell the royalty their day is done, their decadence known, their lack of regard for our common humanity seen. go ahead, this snake has more than fangs.

None of those you mentioned is a mature adult. All act like they are still in art school, shelterd, privileged, royal indeed. None have lived life or learned from it, so ripe for the fall.

And, quite boring.

9/10/2008 06:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

"Lived life"? What is that? It sounds like something harsh and painful.

Can anyone tell me what it's like?

Cedric C

9/10/2008 07:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

Actually if you ask me, nothing in visual arts ever superceded Easter Island, so you're coming a long way with your (Cezanne's) apples and oranges.

In my next bubble bath I'm putting elements of Pomegranate, Blue Orchid and Jasmine, and jojoba sands. This is my gift to humanity: more bubble baths, less wars.

Self-gratification is just one of the many paths to wisdom.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/10/2008 08:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

LOL! No, sorry, you gotta have one to know one. Heaven and hell are right here, but with those in their purgatory of willful ignorance, bliss is a bathtub built off the toil of others, and raping the earth of its fruits. Have a nice bubble bath. What a strong and manly man. LOL!

9/10/2008 08:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Ced said...

Who knows himself a braggart,
let him fear this; for it will come to pass
that every braggart shall be found an ass.


9/10/2008 10:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5 who will be remembered in 100 years:

1.) Richard Serra

2.) Nan Goldin

3.) Julian LaVerdiere

4.) Spike Lee

5.) Damien Hirst

Check back in 100 years to tell me I'm right.

9/10/2008 10:53:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

Donald, considering that I have gotten into flaming arguments with art critics, politicos and poseurs on this blog and many others, regarding my many-flowered allegations that spirituality is at the basis of great art, as well as what gives life its essential purpose, your level of perception about art in general and me in particular is nowhere near what you seem to think it is.

Get past the surface and start looking. You've obviously been honing your grievances in isolation for far too long. You're not the only one who has thought about these things a lot; some of us have thought and written long enough and hard enough that we've actually started to have fun with it. And catch an unwary narcissist or two while we're at it.

9/10/2008 11:13:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

irony n

1: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony

2 a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c: an ironic expression or utterance

3 a (1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2): an event or result marked by such incongruity b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony


9/10/2008 11:24:00 PM  
Blogger Brandon Juhasz said...

So I think the phenomenon of the art school grad art star is the easy marketability. You have instant provenance to sell to a client : "He/She's a recent Yale Grad..." I would imagine it's easier to sell art that has a good lineage and that comes from the right "family". I mean a Warhol or Eggleston comes around only once in a great while, the galleries still need work to sell. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. And who's to say who will be important in 100 years, time has a funny way of working things out, I mean I collected baseball cards when I was kid and no one ever heard of Sammy Sosa back then, 6 or so years into his career he's a superstar.(That's not quite the same analogy but..) I guess what I am saying is, art as a product in the galleries has to sell to keep the whole thing going, and if you can get a good story going about the artist, the Wunderkind-hyper-talented 22 year old it creates buzz..."AS SEEN ON TV!" In the end if I died and I got to be and artist while I was alive, who gives a crap when I'm gone, I won't be there to see it. Oh well I'm rambling now....

As a side note. I'm 32 and really just now making work that in my mind is good, I dropped out of Grad School after 1 semester because I had no idea what to do and it was just frustrating, life happened since then, I have 2 small boys and a day job and I can't imagine making art with out those experiences(although now I crave the days I can be in the studio full time)...When I was 22 my art seemed shallow.

9/11/2008 07:54:00 AM  
Blogger Donna Dodson said...

5 artists who will be remembered in 100 years- Meredith Monk, Jeff Koons, Magdalena Abakanowicz, Deborah Butterfield, Judy Chicago.

9/11/2008 08:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Cedric c said...

5 recent Monuments that will test the passing of time:

Jeff Koons' Puppy in Bilbao
Kapoor's Beam in Chicago
Bourgeois' Maman in Ottawa
Serra's Tuhirangi Contour in New Zealand
Zaha Hadid's Dancing Towers in Dubai (I see it as a sculpture)

Some artists not very high on the market these days will be rewarded for their landmark pieces in new technologies:
Stelarc, Lynn Hershman, Eduardo Kac, etc...

Cedric Caspesyan

9/11/2008 12:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Again, not a single one listed here deals with arts true purpose, who are we as humans, finding what binds us and gives us common purpose, and exploring that sense of god, the eternal, our meaning in life, and how we are to fulfill our roles as part of humanity.

Only Spike has attempted this, and usually comes up short, terrible at ending his movies, except Do The Right Thing, and Malcom X, which was so far superior to other epic pics like Gandhi its ridiculous, but as it didnt deal with white folks preoccupations and made them uncomfortable, got overlooked.

Gee, isnt that what art is supposed to do? Question with GOOD questions, not irrelevant inbred art world nonsense like finding the relationship between the artist, gallery, viewer, blahblahblah. Amazing the inane and absurd questions of youth, and artistes. Get a life, thse people hahve obviously not ahd one, and crate "art" that reflects their shallowness.

9/11/2008 01:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Damn, forgot again

Art collegia delenda est

Comes from Pliny the Elder, not that any of you ignoramusus know anything about history. After the second Punic War and the defeat of Hannibal, he ended every speech with "Cartago delenda est."
Carthage must be destroyed. and it was this time totally, not just made to submit, in the third Punic war.

Even you art school types can take it from there, I hope.

Art collegia delenda est

9/11/2008 01:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Fans of Ann's Fans said...

Teach me Donald, I am yours.

9/11/2008 01:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

And baby, you are speaking pure art school giverish, asking questions that are meaningless outside of the isolated and protected art world. This spirituality nonsense, new age BS, is a way to avoid commitment, I far more respect a religious person who stands up for their values, as long as the dont shove them donw the throat of others. Though most preachers are people who are entertainers, and love to talk, and get the women, or boys, for absolute power corrupts absolutley, and they are in those positins whree no one questions.

so are "spiritual" gurus. My wife is a graphic designer whose main client is Agape, whose choir was at the DNC, and ridiculted by Jon Stewart as "the interacial, bicurious, gender confused singers" backing up two main vocalists. This is why there are red states, revolted by the excesses and lack of backbone by the "blue" states. Both have gone extreme, and left us middle ground intellgent thoughtful people out of the loops, and at the mercy of imbeciles. Often created by art schools.

So honey, drip the affectations and silly attitudes towards life, they are meaningless in 99.9% of the world, being cute can be awfully annoying. Truth, well, that can be irritating too, to those who dont want to deal with it, and be construcively self critical, a lost art.

Art collegia delends est

9/11/2008 01:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

And baby, you are speaking pure art school giberish, asking questions that are meaningless outside of the isolated and protected art world. This spirituality nonsense, new age BS, is a way to avoid commitment, I far more respect a religious person who stands up for their values, as long as the dont shove them down the throat of others. Though most preachers are people who are entertainers, and love to talk, and get the women, or boys, for absolute power corrupts absolutely, and they are in those positions where no one questions.

So are "spiritual" gurus. My wife is a graphic designer whose main client is Agape, whose choir was at the DNC, and ridiculted by Jon Stewart as "the interacial, bicurious, gender confused singers" backing up two main vocalists. And behind the completley self absorbed and self gratifying, bet Ced loves it, nonsense called The Secret. Even Oprah, and Agape itself, no longer talk about its absurdities.

This is why there are red states, revolted by the excesses and lack of backbone by the "blue" states. Both have gone extreme, and left us middle ground intellgent thoughtful people out of the loops, and at the mercy of imbeciles. Often created by art schools.

So honey, drip the affectations and silly attitudes towards life, they are meaningless in 99.9% of the world, being cute can be awfully annoying. Truth, well, that can be irritating too, to those who dont want to deal with it, and be construcively self critical, a lost art.

Art collegia delends est

9/11/2008 02:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann said...

Before and after tragedy

9/11/2008 02:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

And Brandon, you are the type that may actually create something useful, IF you drop all you have learned at art schools, as did Cezanne, Picasso, Bonnard, and most true artists. Once you get past what the market wants, and the mediocre can offer for payment, then start exploring the world of humanity, science, history, family, you can get somewhere true. Real, Meaningful.

Yes, no one knows who will be good in 100 years, but it wont be the obvious money grubers listed here, the Geromes and Meisonniers of todays decadence. THAT you can bet the house on.

The world is finally changing fundamentally again, go back to the the basics, and see where life will take you. I am probably too old, at 49, grizzled and grumpy, if thoughtful and incisive. Maybe I will be like Degas, separate in my own ways, before the new wave stirs up, as Modernism did in the turmoil before Old Europe destroyed itself in WWI. When artists were exploring past its decrepid borders, learning about humanity, not just their own decadent cultures. Look to science if the world is not imploded in the next few days, but most importantly family, know yourself and paint what you know, through the filter of the worlds experiences. THEN you might get somewhere true. And lasting. And of god.

Art Collegia Delenda Est

9/11/2008 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Brandon Juhasz said...

I always thought photographers Eggleston, Sternfeld, Adams, Gursky's a little show-y but good and a lot of Sally Mann's stuff especially her Death series are poignant representations of human condition. even Sugimoto's Seascapes and Movie Theaters touch on time and existence successfully. I think they will be remembered.

9/11/2008 02:16:00 PM  
Blogger Brandon Juhasz said...

Sorry to keep posting but I just thought of this great anecdote from my undergrad photography professor whom I was close with, she was a super realist (in philisophical outlook not artistic style) who had lived life and was just a a real inspiration, she would say, "Make sure you don't make crap, the landfills are already filled with bad art." She always made me think of what was true and good to make, Whitman or Emerson (escapes me now) "Marrow"

9/11/2008 02:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspesyan said...

Can't believe I forgot the 7000 Oaks by Beuys in Kassel. Shame on me.

Donald, I don't think you even begin to understand what an artist like Kapoor or Beuys are trying to do. In fact, your first phrase could describe a statement for some of Beuys's projecs.

Let me draw you a picture of your God. God in this world can be defined as: 33 percent christians, 20 percent islamic, 13 per cent hindus, 12 per cent buddhist and other chinese religions, 7 percent other religions (including jewish),
and 15 percent atheists (or agnostics).

All these people are self-centered in their beliefs and think others are just being fools.

This is your godly spiritual world from which you present contemporary artists as being unworthy of.

What is the question you need be asked? You want a return of political arts. There was a thread here somewhere about the current Guernica. We could list artists dealing specifically with the political:

Thomas Hirschorn
Harun Farocki
Jochen Gerz
Santiago Sierra
Marta Menujin
Maybe try to look at one of the War Tourists videos by Emmanuel Licha (I recommend the Chernobyl)

Actually many of the most engaged political artists of today are very influenced by Beuys in the way
their interventions cross the borders between art and life.

People who paint political stuff, like the Abu Ghraib series by Botero, Walton Ford's allegories, etc, don't have that much impact anymore as a Daumier painting could have had over a century ago.
Cinema is the art that has replaced painting in the realm of formulating the grand narratives of our times. There is nothing wrong about this: painting was at the center stage for millenaries. Now it has taken a secondary role
so it doesn't have to aim or pretend to reach to the masses.
You're really barking at the wrong tree.

What you want are good films. Visual arts won't offer you good films. It's not its purpose anymore.


Cedric Caspesyan

9/11/2008 02:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Beys is a fool, asking stupid questions that are stricly of an art school nature, no one else gives a damn, and he produced nothing. Just a dork in a dorky hat, that others of his ilk can relate to, but not the vital, virile, agressive, those who build and create,and procreate. It's ignorant.

Again you miss the point, Guernica is NOT political at all, it is art. Politics comes and goes, dated as soon as it is created, as worthless in the long run as pop, except in phhotography and film where it can be used to learn as history, but when artists get ahold of it, it becomes silly propoganda.

And again, liberals so fear the concept of god they dont have a clue as to what it is. And so can never be artists. Religion has as much to do with social customs, dealing with life and death issues, birth, weddings, bonding of local communties and the needs of those when a loved one dies, as of god. These are things of man, not god. God is about the eternal, not eternal live, I dont believe in any afterlife, too much in mans selfinterest, primitive religions were never about living forever, tahts our vanity. Judaism never talked about living forever, not til the liberals started to take on aspects of Yeshuas era teachings. it is a contract with god about here on earth. No afterlife at all.

God for the artist is NOT about religion, it is about fidning that which is universal to man, which lasts and is fundamental to who we are. About discovering with each generation what we must do and become. So it changes, in the particular, which we use as we are of our time, but at the service of the eternal. This is a viewpoint, an attitude, not a strict doctrine or intepretation about what God is on any particular day to any particualr people, but what man shares. It is NOT about the individual, including the individual god. It is, always has been, always will be, about US. And so creating works through exploration that define us, bind us, unite us, not divide through selfish beliefs.

You are missing the point completely, the result of brainwashing from art schools, by hacks, and mediocrities, Read ONLY the great artists, from before, not the same generation, as we can always be fooled. When your work equals theirs in intesity and power, then you will be on the right road, no matter what materials you use. Thats irrelevant.

Art collegia delenda est

9/11/2008 02:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Hey Brandon, that Cedric finally beat me, his post knocked mine off and lost it when I tried to send.

I was a photographer first, basically self taught as history was my thing, learned in junior college, mostly just to used their equiptment before I won enough college contests to buy my own, a old Kodak view camera and Omega D2 enlarger i used in the garage.

Photography now is split, the old school guys who insist in the purity of the silver print and film, vs the new kids who are rather self involved and artsy, bad technically, rather than artists. Asking the usual silly art school questions, as they dont teach history or anything real at those schools.

I will check out a coupla of them, me, thirty years ago my only competition was Brett Weston, and I went beyod him, which freaked people out as they liked my more traditional Edward Weston stuff, which was just learning the fundamentals for me.

I eventually, after only about four years of shooting, lost interest, as I found my work had become modern painting, very cubist and Klee like, Braque still my favorite modern. Though jazz is and always will be my first love, the equivalent of modern art, Matisse and Miles are jsut about the same, except of course for culture and time, as Bird was Picassos and Braques analytical period, be bop IS cubism. and Coltrane worked through synthetic cubism into abstract expressionsim along with Ornette Coleman, Both went a little too far, but gotta push the boundaires, and created new ways to meld into the old.

and jazz is firmly planted in real life, of both a particular people, and all of humanity. The first and really only universal music, the college stuff these days is weak.

You can check my stuff out at and I will check out these peoples, besides Egglestons and Adams of course.

But still, Art collegia delenda est

Art is always by outsiders, not the inside azzkissers.

9/11/2008 03:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann while thinking of ann said...

You are so Beautiful Donald.
Your eyes are like moons.
I want to see your smile again.

9/11/2008 03:18:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

Donald, you are barging in without introduction, insulting people without taking the trouble to get to know them, and ranting in an exceptionally solipsistic manner. A great number of the points you bring up are points that I have addressed at great length, over several years, engaging with extreme liberals and extreme conservatives alike, receiving my share of abuse for it. Acknowledged members of the 'elite art world' would be extremely surprised at your assumption that I in any way represent its tenets, aesthetics or character.

Far from being 'art school gibberish,' most people at art school looked at me as a freak that was unrelated to the sorts of freaks they thought themselves to be. I am on the record as comprehensively opposing most MFA programs, and do not have an MFA myself. My for-money job is as a bodyworker, and my art directly addresses transpersonal spirituality, with underpinnings in a great respect for the discipline and virtues of religious tradition. I repeat, the 'art world' has not taken kindly to this.

You are free to take exception to my chosen, playful style; I merely wish to point out that you made a snap judgment of my character, motivations and substance which is not borne out by the facts, as a result of a cursory and superficial reaction to that style.

You saw what you expected to see, and what you projected, in other words.

9/11/2008 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

And Ed, you're being attacked by spambots again.

9/11/2008 03:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

And yes Eddie, I fight fire with a flame thrower. The water is money and the market, the rich. Dont have enough of one, or want to be among the other. I am not Yeshua, I refuse to turn the other cheek. Not to lies and decadence, I care about our country, and my family, far too much to sit quietly and watch it rot. From the inside. I will go down fighting, as well all should, as a man. THATs living.

Art collegia delenda est

9/11/2008 03:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

My apologies, then, but change you website, you are still in the art world as far as voculary and interests, reasses them. Religions have their own issues, the right wing has distorted them for their own needs.

However, as I go through life, I find left and right are often just part of the personality, imbedded as it were, part of an individuals outlook and often cant be changed. You must argue from their self absorbed positions, rather than outside of it. I am a permanent outsider, disgusted by conformity of both wings, nd again the right will win an election because of stupid liberals.

The DNC was a disaster from the middle viewpoint, obama appeared weak and used the term I an absurd amount of times. He lost it there and at the church here in the damn OC the week before with McCain, who I have lost respect for this last few months. The President prime responsibility is commander in chief, defense of the nation. then later from the inside. He msut be decisive, no waffling and feelings psycho bable, you should know the issues already and make quick decisions, filling them out on the run, explaining them later, not first.

I told my wife as we listend he was blowing it, she argued against, but now see I am unfortunately right. The
suprme court will be packed. Thanks liberals you fucked us up again, vain idiots.

Again, delete all you ahve learned in art school MFAs are not the issues, jsut a waste of money. The issues they care about are not real ones, but play things for the rich adn weak. They mean nothing. Good questions are everything, lead to new and better ones, not silly games.

Art collegia delenda est.

9/11/2008 03:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann said...

So amazing to be living. Hey, Donald?

Pretty Lady, your words are very kind.

Edward, your topic has made for a very interesting discussion.

Thank you

9/11/2008 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

change you website, you are still in the art world as far as voculary and interests, reasses them.

How dare you. What a thoroughly obnoxious statement. You just told a self-directed artist to change entirely to suit the aesthetic and conceptual priorities of a total stranger, who is extraordinarily rude, and very obviously unused to considering anyone else's perspective but his own. And you accuse young artists today of self-absorption? How do you expect to be taken seriously on any level, by anyone, when you behave like this?

Shame on you.

9/11/2008 04:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Casp said...

----Comes from Pliny the Elder

non cartago dalenda est sed cartago servanda est Scipio Nasica

I have seen an horrid kitsch romanticization of Pliny The Elder's life in some exhibition about Pompeii artefacts somewhere. I think it was in Ottawa?

-----not the vital, virile,
----agressive, those who build and ----create, and procreate.

Sounds like a fantasy from Tom Of Finland. I still think you don't grasp Beuys very well. He really wasn't the kind to remain in a studio. He built wineries and environment designs, planted lots of trees, came to really question these issues of what is the benifit of art if it doesn't serve the people, etc. He would have become nearly a socialist propaganda artist if hadn't been so esoteric and marginal. He's the most meaningful philosopher-as-artist that art has encounter in the last 50 years (nothwithstanding the philosophers who never made art themselves). Do you know what he did? He took the shovel of Duchamps and got interested by its history, its origins, which hand it had passed on, which purpose it served, the places where it travelled, what energy it served as a transfer. That's just a figure of style. He never probably saw Duchamps's shovel in person. But that's what his art did. It reaffirmed the life of inane objects. It aimed to reveal everything about an object that was hiddden from its physical appearance. Call it the failure of metaphysical arts but don't brag me about tagging Beuys of being a college boy. He was a survivor of WWII. I'm pretty sure your Anselm Kiefer reveres him.

----God for the artist is NOT ----about religion, it is about
----fidning that which is universal to man.

Oh you mean...THAT God! Hum-k.
Than it is not possible for an artwork to not be universal. If you reject an artwork, than you are simply rejecting a piece of the universe.

----When your work equals theirs ----in intesity and power, then you ----will be on the right road, no ----matter what materials you use. ----Thats irrelevant.

Allright, as long as you don't ask me to reproduce the intensity of The Lightning Field.

Cedric (who incidentally, refers to some of his art as being of religious purpose. I don't take that from Donald, though.)

9/11/2008 04:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Two Donalds said...

Pretty lady,

this is wonderful!

I want to change entirely to suit the aesthetic and conceptual priorities of a total stranger.

is it possible?

9/11/2008 05:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Ced said...

There was a typo mistakew in my quoting of Scipio Nasica

9/11/2008 05:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann said...

of course, yes of course

9/11/2008 05:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

I dare becaue I give a damn, about my kids, about the future, not myself. I never thought I would make money at art, done better than I thought actually, because I REFUSE to play the game. You still are even though you argue against it. That is very clear.

NO great artist evern finished an art school most either never went, or quit as they soon outshown their mediocre teachers, or knew they were not being taught what truly is. If you finish at a school you are a lemming. Now, you can stop being a lemming, but only by recognizing as such. Picasso did, he threw out all he had been taught after his blue and rose periods, and began anew in demoiselles d Avignon, What the hell do you think that was about? Freeing onself from the tyranny of the academies. They are, and always wil be, citadels of self interest.

You want to go to school for science, great! Thats where things happen, but you gotta compete to get into Cal tech or MIT. Only the toughest and most focused get in. Art schools take anyone who will pay, or those who can fill a quota. Its about the $$$ only . Its just a damn blog, I will say what i have learned til they throw me off or i get bored by it. Been through the real wars with sports dads and wannbe coaches on basketball sites for year, my sons played college ball, Exept the most talented, who coulda almost been a pro, but fell to mental illness and gangbangers, now a shell of his former self, Hoping he grows up someday. But he is grown, and has to find his own way.

THOSE people are nuts, artistes just weak, and delusional, as were the sports dads.

Anyway, about done here. I am off. The truth has been spoken, up to you to use it how you want to, or discard it. As with everything, its your choice. Bye.

Art colleges must be destroyed

9/11/2008 05:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann said...

dc goal

I've always Liked you Donald.

9/11/2008 05:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Cedric the
entertainer. for thoughtful and deep you are not.

duchamp was a wimp, made maybe two decent works of art, one really good one, then quit and played games the rest of his life. Word games, which art school took on because they were cute and easily teachable. Makes one look clever, but they are about nothing, he thought it funny to fool othesr into buying HIS kitsch, for taht is what it was. He amused himself, but took himself out of life. His choice, his life. But left a bad legacy for fools to follow. It is NOT art, has none of the distinctions of it, but the gamesters thought they had come upon something new and evolved past the old stuff. silly children.

All the more reason,
Art Collegia Delenda Est

9/11/2008 05:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspe said...

Wrether what I said was profound or not was irrelevant to the fact that I was commenting about how Beuys's approach defiled Duchamps', which you misinterpreted as being an ode to Duchamps.

-----What the hell do you think that was about?

Appropriation of african art.

-----now a shell of his former self

Poor him. You're really just exhibiting here what a monster of a father you are. Pitiful.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/11/2008 05:38:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

That's it Donald. You're not welcome here. Please leave.

9/11/2008 05:40:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

Cedric, you'll have to follow Donald to another blog to continue this conversation. I won't host such bickering here.

9/11/2008 05:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

I didn't even mean to insult, actually. My reply was more the
consequence of shock and indignation.

I'm sorry,


9/11/2008 06:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Donald Frazell said...

Was hardly any African in it at all, damn you cant see. Two masks is all, but did use the discoveries of african art as it fit into what he was seeking. nothing wrong with that at all. WE all use other works as points of departure, we build upon the past. Hell, it was actually completely built upon Cezannes bather, all the figures poses taken from two of his paintings, had just had his retrospective and inspired to jettison all the BS he had been taught, and look at real life. And had the masks as inspirtion also.

Seen lots of bad German Expressionists who DID plagiarize from african art, relied on copies of it for its entire impact, in a very watered down and academic way.

What DO they teach in art schools these days? Amazing. And Beuys is silliness. Yes, Kiefer was a student of his, but then, Matisse had been on of Moreau. Who had some interesting stuff. Hell, bet lots of thses guys are nice people, but as artist, dont serve man at all. We havbe purpose, we have roles for society to help it function properly, since te caves in france, and all over the world. Artsits are not special except in teh way of the special olympics. this Preciousness and arrogance of being appart and superior is decadent. And everywhere. And childish.

By the way, my other two kids are doing great, one playing football at a business college in Long Island, the other graduated from Annapolis. In San Antonio, ready to ship off for Afghanistan, a necessary war that has been ruined by Bushes fixation on Iraq. Happens in the best of families. Some have to do it their own way. Some dont do it at all, and become artistes.

Bye y'all

9/11/2008 06:29:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspesyan said...

-----What DO they teach in art -----schools these days?

I have no idea. I'm not an art student. It's much much worse than that. I'm an amateur.

I've seen my first retro of Picasso at 12 years old and I found it cutesy and postcardish. You need to understand that I'm from the generation of tv colored cartoons and video games. Picasso cannot have the same impact for someone like me. Different generations, different values.

Art today is way too complex and wide a field that anyone cannot find an artist that they like. Keep looking and you will find that artist. To each his own. I'm open-minded toward mediocrity because I believe nothing great can come out without it.

I also believe that God stands just right at the turn of mediocrity just where you least expect it to be.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/11/2008 08:04:00 PM  
Blogger Jon said...

Francis Alys will likely be remembered in Lima, Peru in a hundred years. Which is the point really. Memory is local and specific. It is too reductive to say "name five artists who will be remembered in 100 years." That kind of popularity contest erases the specific and ignores the local.

9/11/2008 09:58:00 PM  
Anonymous The Artist as Pederast said...

Someone will make a video, film, or painting of your life, Donald.

In Sweden, Do you remember last year?

on 23 Sep 2007 at 2:54 pm
“In this first film Donald Duck wears his signature sailor’s suit, which remains unchanged right through the years. But he wears no pants, which caused censorship problems in Sweden!?-The Hindu

Edward, this is a brilliant forum and a gift.

Thank you.

9/11/2008 11:27:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric C said...

Spencer Tunick will be remembered because of his masses of nude people.

South America has a strong history of social action art and interventions and I tend to believe that they would look back at their own legacy before remembering that Alys piece, but I could be wrong. About 4 or 5 of these artists though are likely to be rediscovered and have their first american or european retros in the next 20 years. In the present market-oriented system its quasi impossible, but their time will come.

Cedric Caspesyan

Cedric c

9/12/2008 12:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspesyan said...

I realized I covered almost every continent except Africa.

Shame on me !

I vote for Battle Of Little Big-Horn by Ousmane Sow (standing near a river in Senegal I think).

For South America (Menujin was ephemeral) I vote for Floralis Generica by Eduardo Catalano (a mixture of Calavatra and Jeff Koons, really).

Cedric Casp

9/12/2008 01:43:00 AM  
Blogger Brandon Juhasz said...

Just have a few more thoughts on the subject of "worth-while" art. Expectations so high are great because it shows that like the desire to want there to be a God or afterlife we need to know we matter and we want desperately for things to matter. However, when we make something as mortals it still is filtered through our meager existence, experience and interpretation. I remember a conversation I had about painting or photographing a sunset and whether or not it was God or Godly, my thoughts were no, if you wanted it to be that just go watch a sunset. Our interpretation of the sunset creates something else because by making it we attach ourselves to it. I sort of feel God is not or can not be art because we make art. Now I can hear the arguments about Barnett Newman and the sublime, but I feel like that is still an art concept not the real life concept of the sublime, the cosmos, the unending universe, thoughts are sublime, art is pictures. (no disrespect meant by that statement, even though I realize it sounds a little harsh.)

Lastly, I think the desire for painting to exist as it did in the past can never happen, with the explosion of technique and definition of art, especially with photography taking over the main role of painting, it has to exist in a different way, hence the types of things we are seeing, personal narrative, silly formal exercises, abstraction that relates to painting alone. Things have become extremely complicated and to have historical expectations I think would lead to a fruitless experience. I look at Cezanne differently than I look at a Schutz.
all right, I'm done rambling....

9/12/2008 07:38:00 AM  
Anonymous est mort said...

Oh, Donald.

I love you.

9/12/2008 12:07:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

Donald has be uninvited. Love him somewhere else.

9/12/2008 12:12:00 PM  
Anonymous TLC (Final Live performance) said...

I will Edward.

Again, Thank you for the forum

I'll leave with Donald.

9/12/2008 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

happy travels.

9/12/2008 12:15:00 PM  
Blogger Pretty Lady said...

Ed, you're talking to a spambot. I say this kindly, and with great concern--are you SURE your vacation was long enough?

9/12/2008 01:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann Unplugged Ann said...

I say this with sincerity...

Aren't we all spambots

9/12/2008 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

ann of many monikers,

why DO you link to you tube videos then?

it's annoying.

9/12/2008 02:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Always Ann said...

you've got my number

isn't that all that is required

the videos are no different than a name.

9/12/2008 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

actually, I don't have your ISP and neither do any other readers who would follow your link to see who you are (its raison d'etre), hence the conclusion that you were a spambot.

9/12/2008 02:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Not entirely Ann said...

So what do you want me to do to "be" so that I mayengage you and your readers in a "discussion" as defined by your terms

9/12/2008 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

I didn't ask you to be anything. I simply asked why you link to music videos.

I was curious. That's all.

I explained how I felt about them, but was willing to accept that there was some logic to the practice that escaped me that would change my mind about that.

9/12/2008 03:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann's testament said...

Thank you for your interest, Edward.

So, would you like me to stop the links?

9/12/2008 03:08:00 PM  
Blogger Edward_ said...

actually, I was hoping you had an interesting reason for using them...a mystery or something like that

I will note that I too assume any comment with a video link is a spambot

9/12/2008 03:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Testament of Ann said...


now to me that is a mystery.

please explain.

9/12/2008 03:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspesyan said...

I am under the impression that this is zipthwung or one of his (her) friends.

Back in the days when I participated at Talkback (Artforum), some people (including zipthwung) would use ebay links, song lyrics, or web photographs as replies, like they aimed to create a gigantic cadavrexquis of internet collage. Everything was left to interpretation but I left because it soon becoming really annoying for those who wished to separate discussion with any form of artmaking.

I know zipthwung does these mysterious found images associations on his websites (threads with 3 or 4 photos, or a few youtube videos presented in suite) which can be perceived as some sort of art project, a language of his (or her) own, but I hesitate that this Ann would be Zipthwung. I wouldn't be surprised if Ann was one of the linkers at Talkback, though.

Zipthwung is far from being a fool, but sometimes I wonder what drugs he's (she's) on.

Cedric C

9/12/2008 06:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Ann reclining said...

Cedric, I used to work as a trucker and I can remember listening to the last show whispering Bob did on the radio. In those days Talkback required its guest to be able to play live, thats what made it such a great show, it also gave air time to many up and coming bands, I miss it even now, nothing has replaced it, there is a void.

9/12/2008 06:33:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

zipthwung will be remembered.

9/13/2008 01:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course, Cedric, Demoiselles is too dull for you. You are of the generations of short attention spans, where color and baubles and shiny things please you, you want to be entertained.

Art is not entertainment, but galleries these days are filled wiht toys and baby crib danglings, look here at Eddies gallery, all kiddie stuff. Not an adult in sight, no one to supervise the spoiled brats.

Make no mistake this crap is my enemy, and I am yours. You will go down without me, decadence always fades to come back when we who fix things get life back in ballance again, so you can screw it up. The pendulum swings. i am for ballance, the right and left are all fools whose time comes and goes and we gotta bring it back down to reality.

Imperial clothing is my declaration of War,
Art collegia delenda est my battle cry.
Hope you find jobs in about five years when your markets crash, wont be many, adn you wnt have the skills ot contribute in any productive way. Always Walmart.


9/13/2008 04:03:00 PM  
Blogger Balhatain said...

I was going to comment about the article, but I forgot what I was going to say after observing the Don Bomb. By the way Donald, if you are still lurking here you might want to bounce back to my blog and answer some of my responses to your comments.

9/13/2008 04:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Always check out to see what i say, if you really want to hear some criticism, not jsut the nonsense criticising politicians and such, that ignorant artistes do, but NEVEr contructively criticsize themselves. An unexamined life is not worth living after all. And lots of other platitudes.

Dion is cool, outside the circles of decadence, and a sense of humor about it all, plus of course put my article on is site. READ it first, then get back to me, easy enough, just google me. Posted July 16th i believe, in three parts, if you can handle it. would have been much more than 3,800 words, have tons of examples, proofs to my thesis. But cuts to the chase, unlike verbiose about nothing artistes. Nothing is what the rich want, and they get, you supply it. Fight it. Stop being at their service, if you truly want change. Humans are who we are, but gotta fight constantly to be constructive. Thats life, and much of arts "conversation". God, i hate meaningless artspeak. OK, I think i am done here. will get deleted soon of course.

Donald Frazell

9/14/2008 03:30:00 PM  
Blogger Belvoir said...

I'd like to give a half-hearted clap to Donald Frazell and Ann of A Thousand Names for selfishly disrespecting Ed's space here, burying any discussion of his very very good post in a blizzard of self-referential blather. Coarse, rude, and boorish. Not in the least amusing, or contributing to the conversation.

And I'd like to thank Ed for his forbearance dealing with things like this. Ed's blog is an immense act of generosity many of us appreciate, and I would hate to see him stop blogging over such nonsense.

9/14/2008 06:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspe said...

Donald, you misinterprete "cutesy" and "postcardish" as meaning "dull". Les Demoiselles is a landmark piece in the realm of the aesthetics. But I believe that it wasn't much more than a play on aesthetics. I believe it was exactly a bauble for entertainment which you accuse me of defending. It was made for the art salon crowds, as a reply to a Matisse. It's very fetishistic.

To the defense of the youth, I will claim that their hours spent playing World Of Warcraft prove against your notion that they have short attention span, quite to the contrary. You haven't seen Les Demoiselle like they've seen World Of Warcraft. The world is more autistic than ever.

Also, you are confusing my personal tastes in art with my thoughts on which artists will be remembered. Had I lived in the times of Picasso, I would have probably agreed that Les Demoiselles would be remembered, but I always have had taste for stuff that I doubted could reach the state of consensus. I don't really mention those, what would be the point?

Cedric Caspesyan

9/15/2008 12:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

AGAIN wrong. Demoiselles takes up where Cezanne left off, the oneness of the world. He took on other attributes of mankind, Cezanne stricly concerned with the atomization of the world around him, how to create in paint the world of Rutherford, of the atomic chart, of the substance of the gasses and liquids and solids, that they are all created of the same stuff, but in different states. How to reflect the reality of what we know to be true visually.

Picasso and Matisse went beyond the borders of an atrophied Europe, about to implode in WWI. He looked at other cultures, and used what went with the current knowledge of life, not plagiarizing, but using what others knew and felt in a way that was current in thought, in scientific knowledge, of history, and the oneness of man himself. He used Cezannes composition, one small square painting with the replacement of two figures from another, as structure past even Cezanne, who bridged two worlds, that of the nineteenth and the new dawning scientific revolutions. The thoughts of Einstein and others on matter and PHYSICAL relativism. The ideas were in the air, debated, argued over. What does art argue about now? How to make more money off scumbag Russians and investment bankers. Who should be jumping out of windows as we speak.

Art does not now relate to the world we know, few artistes know anything about the sciences, politics, history and economics. And so thats what you see, ignorant self expressions. Childish rants. Spoiled brats. Useless wannabes and affectatins by effeminantes. NO sexuality, no passion, no interaction with the world of six billion, or universe. And about to collapse under its own decadence, finally.

Dont blame your lack of comprehension on them, but your education, and lack of following up on evident truths, when lies, games and self deceptions are so much more fun. Children at play.

Art collegia delenda est

And Eddie is as bad as any, look at the toys he shows as art, how he relishes the ass kissing by the group portraying his family, just happens to be about hiim, and others not caring. Talk about self absorbed infantile delusions of grandeur. God help us. His galley will soon perish in the grandiose marketing of Chelsea, many businesses that move into palatial digs at times of economic peak fail, when the inevitible recession hits. Thats the point, we have been doing what we want, not what we need to do. Children. I am sure his parents would be proud, seen it before over and over and over.


9/15/2008 03:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Cedric Caspesyan said...

-------few artistes know anything -------about the sciences,
-------politics, history and economics.

Including Cezanne and Picasso. What you believe you saw in Les Demoiselles is an interpretation that some critic wrote in a book years after the fact about the links between Einstein and Picasso.

Every art development or scientifical discoveries are informed by the movements of thoughts that have propelled them, these shifts most of the time addressed (acknowledged) first by philosophy (which creates a language for them). Cubism and Einstein are probably both the products of the same thinking, which probably has a father if you can name me the philosopher who first nagged (hinted at) the possibility of Cubism and Relativity before they were invented. Husserl? You probably can draw back to Kant (apparently Picasso got it from reading Gertrud Stein), I'd have to think about this, but it certainly was not that Einstein influenced cubism. Relativity was way too marginal to have had been heard of by Picasso by 1907. The surrealists were probably the first to directly acknowledge Einstein.

The interpretation about Cezanne is beautiful but a little transcendental. His work was about the perceptual, not about how nature was made. In fact he transformed his mountain into a pure visual phenomena. It would be diminutive to tag his work of having such an agenda as willing to represent theories about atomization. It's much more visceral than that. It's also very innocent and autistic. It imitates the cognitive experience of autism very well.

I'm sure some curator has already associated Kapoor's art with current science, but most artists are more surprised and flattered by what people see into their work than admitting that all what is written about it is true.

Is a work of art "about" something if the artist never even thought about it?

If yes than surely they are artists today who represent the current world as judiciously as the examples you have proposed, while being totally unaware of it.

Cedric Caspesyan

9/15/2008 11:31:00 PM  

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